Curse

Jeydra · Dec 02, 2010, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

You answered your question with the point you made. The problem is that to even maintain 30 DPS with Discord the Necro has to spend 1.75s (1s + .75s aftercast) out of every 3 seconds. To be realistic, a Discord caster can't even cast other skills without eating into the Discord damage unless his bar is entirely full of spells that take .5s or less to cast (hint: it isn't). Rodgorts Invocation on the other hand is only spending 2.75s out of every 10 seconds, costing a caster less then half as much time as Discord. Rodgorts invocation also has a high AoE multiplying the DPS with every enemy inside it, inflicts burning (an extra 42 damage per hit, though not stacking with multiple characters), is not elite, and doesn't have asinine requirements to be met before its used. And let me also mention that Rodgorts invocation isn't even a great skill, its only really good in stupid tank-n-spank situations where you can ball enemies up to massively exploit the AoE. It still beats Discord though.

That's again short-sighted. You do not have to cast Discord every time it's cooled down; neither do you have to cast Rodgort's Invocation. You are perfectly free to cast other spells on your bar if you want to. You are free to "eat into the Discord damage" if doing so benefits you. So the damage output on a Discord Necro is nowhere near ~30 DPS (in fact I'll wager it's way above ~30 DPS, especially if backed by a 40/40 Death Magic set).

Discord is clearly one of the best Necro elites around in the hands of a hero. It's certainly one of the better elites across all professions as well. If you're going to hate Discord, do so for valid reasons.

Missing HB · Dec 02, 2010, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Discord nerf would make a lot of things change. Except maybe for 2 areas upon all , most can be done with anything . I personally did some with iway warriors and many just with SoH monk + 2 sf eles so....

However , it would be a better question to ask what would everyone do without Shadow Form...

Rushin Roulette · Dec 02, 2010, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Wasn't UWSC with pre-nerf Shadow Form something like 7-8 minutes? As for Ursan, it's less a SC as it is a simple build. Today's UWSC clears things faster than Ursan not because Ursan was nerfed, but because Shadow Form was buffed.

Also it takes time for a newly buffed skill to be implemented. Spiritway in its present form didn't take hold immediately after spirits got buffed, same should apply to Shadow Form.

I know Ursan was never a speed clear... thats why I put it in parenthesies. The SF buff was actually a while before the Ursan nerf.

The current speedclear using Sins was actually due to a competition here on Guru where Ursan Haters got together and made a competition to find a team of 7 players (plus a non combatant judge who suicided at the start and looked through deathcam at players to check that no illegal skills were used in the team build).

The idea was to make a team build that works in the UW without using any PvE skills. Cons were grudgingly allowed, because the Judges had no way of controlling the honesty of the teams using personal cons, so all and any cons were allowed for every team to openly use.

Shortly after that Ursan was nerfed for the first time I beleive. The successfull team build was published on Wiki a few months later after being modiffied to be even faster and include an active 8th player. That was the birth of UWSC using Sin teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Reading about the ursan nerf solely in terms of underworld speed clearing: Ursan was not nerfed solely because of UW clears. It was nerfed because of EVERYTHING clears. It was overpowered EVERYWHERE, with absolutely no limitation. You could roll anything under the sun with 6 ursans and 2 monks(or 3 ursans and 1 monk, or 4 ursans, one monk and one whatever), period. It eliminated ALL the other skills in the game besides those that directly improved ursan blessing.

I only put the example of Ursan in the UW situation to show an extreme situation of what crying about a skill can get you. In the end players got creative instead of only playing Ursan "builds" and thought of even more effective builds which after loads of rounds where players cried about skills being overly strong and anet nerfing them we are at a situation where the metas are faster, more effective and a lot safer completing something the players were originally crying about. If for example Anet decided to completely unnerf Ursan again to the point where it was ranged armor ignoring damage you would get teams forming again... but UWSC teams would be laughing at them because they could do the same as them but be able to complete 3 runs in the time the Ursans would take to stumble around in a huge roaring mob.

Takein into context here with this thread... If Anet decided to nerf Discord, players would just find new skill and team combinations which would in the end be much more effective than Discord builds are now... and can you guess what will happen then? Yup... players will whine and cry at Anet because that new build takes no skill, is too overpowered, is boring or whatever untill Anet nerfs that new skill/build... starting the everlasting cycle again.

Killed u man · Dec 02, 2010, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

That's again short-sighted. You do not have to cast Discord every time it's cooled down; neither do you have to cast Rodgort's Invocation. You are perfectly free to cast other spells on your bar if you want to. You are free to "eat into the Discord damage" if doing so benefits you. So the damage output on a Discord Necro is nowhere near ~30 DPS (in fact I'll wager it's way above ~30 DPS, especially if backed by a 40/40 Death Magic set).

Discord is clearly one of the best Necro elites around in the hands of a hero. It's certainly one of the better elites across all professions as well. If you're going to hate Discord, do so for valid reasons.

Again, you can't argue with numbers. You can't say: "I don't think this 2 is a 2, I think it's a 1". Either it is, or it isn't.

Ignoring 40/40 sets, as they can be used for any build, and thus be left out for every build, it's 126 damage/3 seconds (under masochism). This results in 42 DPS, going from the fact that every discord goes through and that you can meet the condition for a hex and a condition every 3 seconds. (Which is reasonable with enfeebling and aoe hexes)

However, the DPS is just that, it's 42. Unlike a physical which can be buffed and buffed and buffed, you won't be able to buff a discord necro. Part of this also lies in the difference between discord and other builds:

In other builds the player, in one form or the other, supplies the majority of the damage, and heroes are there to do what they do best, which is support. In discord, however, you rely on heroes doing the damage, are they're stuck to non-PvE skills. (So non EOTN etc)

Discord is a reliable build in such a way you can pretty much always meet the damage condition, and their support works in just about every area in the game, however the damage they do is just so below-par a physical buffer, or AoE damage bars it makes discord a pretty "bad" elite by PvE standards.

What discord does is takes out enemies one at a time, which is fine for vanquishing, but when talking about speedvanquishing or elite areas (DoA) where there is douzens of balled up foes, one splinter weapon rit will probably outDPS 3 discordheroes, that's with only splinter weapon on his bar.

A non-AoE skill, no matter how powerfull, will never be concidered "rediciously OP" by PvE standards as long as warriors can go in and use one whirling swing to kill an entire group of lvl 28 monsters.

ogre_jd · Dec 02, 2010, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

This sentence uses two of the most overly misused phrases in the english language.

TBH(to be honest): Your earlier statements did not imply or even allude to a falsehood of any kind. Thus, TBH is unnecessary and directly implies that your earlier statements were less than honest.

Actually, it implies that the statement it's attached to, or precedes, will be blunt or otherwise unwelcome news to the reader/person being responded to rather than sugar-coated, not any actual dishonesty. Maybe it's a regional distinction. *shrug*

Quote:

It eliminated ALL the other skills in the game besides those that directly improved ursan blessing.

Only for a relatively minor, but VERY vocal, portion of the community. The rest of us mainly used Ursan as a placeholder 'til we got decent Elites for our professions or because we listened to all the hype and then dumped it out of boredom with the all-Ursan teams (assuming we had the r8 Norn being demanded most of the time) and went back to regular builds. (I fall into both categories and most of the people in the guilds I've been in over the years fall into one or both of the categories as well)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

And let me also mention that Rodgorts invocation isn't even a great skill, its only really good in stupid tank-n-spank situations where you can ball enemies up to massively exploit the AoE.

Tank-and-spank is hardly stupid, especially in GW where it actually takes effort to do at all reliably and with any sort of safety for the tank thanks to the way aggro works (with players holding caster weapons and lower armor & health being the priority targets, even if they're at the very edge of the critter's perception). In other games you just need someone to go in first and beat on things and/or have taunting skills (usually class-based to make things easy) that specifically focus aggro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

A non-AoE skill, no matter how powerfull, will never be concidered "rediciously OP" by PvE standards as long as warriors can go in and use one whirling swing to kill an intire group of lvl 28 monsters.

Yeah, I don't think a single Whirling Attack/Crude Swing/Yeti Smash is going to do much to a group of level 28 critters. I'd really love to know how other Warriors are able to get good damage 'cos those skills rarely do more than 30 or so damage per hit for mine...

Riot Narita · Dec 02, 2010, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

However, the DPS is just that, it's 42. Unlike a physical which can be buffed and buffed and buffed, you won't be able to buff a discord necro.

Missing the point.

The strength of Discord teams is repeatable spikes.
Equivelent DPS over time is irrelevant.

One player with 3 Necros can spike a called target for 378. Easy kill every three seconds. Assuming the caller brought appropriate skills and knows what they're doing.

One player with 6 Necros can spike for 756. Insta-gib, every 3 seconds. That's me, using extra heroes from a second account.

Buffed Warriors generally have to move between targets to pull off spikes like that. Which is comparitively slow, and in doing so they become vulnerable to AoE. Necros can be spread out and hardly have to move, if at all.

Stuff like splinter weapon and other AoE requires enemies to be bunched to be effective. Discord does not.

That simplicity and effectiveness make it popular. There will probably always be tactics, builds etc that can outperform it for a given situation, but Discord teams are the Path Of Least Resistance for a lot people, no thought or planning needed. I use many different team builds, but I also use Discord plenty, cos a) I'm lazy these days and b) don't care what anyone thinks of me.

drkn · Dec 02, 2010, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

A non-AoE skill, no matter how powerfull, will never be concidered "rediciously OP" by PvE standards as long as warriors can go in and use one whirling swing to kill an intire group of lvl 28 monsters.

While it's true, don't forget that to be a powerful, imba warrior, you need either some microing on your heroes or other players. Discord is easy to use - you never really need to micro anything on heroes - and works well while H/Hing.

Shasgaliel · Dec 02, 2010, 01:06 PM // 13:06

I never use/d this skill. Again it would be another community "disastrous" change with no significant impact on casual players but with significant amount of whine on gw forums.

Killed u man · Dec 02, 2010, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Yeah, I don't think a single Whirling Attack/Crude Swing/Yeti Smash is going to do much to a group of level 28 critters. I'd really love to know how other Warriors are able to get good damage 'cos those skills rarely do more than 30 or so damage per hit for mine...

Even if this were true, you're missing the point:

Discord "only" does 42 DPS. This number is a set amount, and won't ever, ever, increase. There is nothing you can do in this intire game that would increase the damage on a discord hero.

However, if we're talking about a warrior with AoE attack skills, the more foes you hit, the higher your DPS gets. In HM, I average at around 25 damage per hit with Cylcone Axe (and triple is about 50). If you run triple chop and cylcone axe, you got, ignoring auto attacks, (25*2)+ 50= 112,5 Damage per 10 seconds per foe.

This means that for every foe you have around you, your DPS increases by 11,2. (And this is full ignoring auto attacking) When you have 4 foes around you, which isn't much even by regular play standards, a single unbuffed warrior does more than a discord necro.

This all is assuming you're not using splinter, Strength of Honor, Mark of Pain or other warrior buff's skills.

The point I'm making is: Single targe damage is nothing compared to AoE damage.

Quote:

Missing the point.
The strength of Discord teams is repeatable spikes.
Equivelent DPS over time is irrelevant.

One player with 3 Necros can spike a called target for 378. Easy kill every three seconds. Assuming the caller brought appropriate skills and knows what they're doing.

One player with 6 Necros can spike for 756. Insta-gib, every 3 seconds. That's me, using extra heroes from a second account.

And you seem to forget: In the 3 seconds it takes you to kill 1 foe one warrior with splinter weapon and/or Mark of Pain will have kill an intire mob. What you say is intirely true: Discord does kill a foe every 3 seconds, esp with 7 hero team.

So let's say there's a group of 5 foes, a discord team would need 15 seconds to kill all of them. (Or 12 if you wanna argue the first discord comes at 0 seconds)
A team with AoE skills, lets assume splinter, would kill all foes simutaniously after the second splinter, which is at 10 seconds. (or 5 if you want to argue te first splinter comes at 0 seconds)

Discord will definatly get the "first" kill, but getting the first kills means nothing when you can kill all of them 5 seconds later. The fact that discord has to kill one by one is it's weakness, and the reason why discord can never be truly overpowered compared to AoE skills.

Quote:

Buffed Warriors generally have to move between targets to pull off spikes like that. Which is comparitively slow, and in doing so they become vulnerable to AoE. Necros can be spread out and hardly have to move, if at all.

Stuff like splinter weapon and other AoE requires enemies to be bunched to be effective. Discord does not.

I don't know if you've played warrior in PvE, but I've recently vanquished all of Tyria, I'm currently working on cantha and elona, and I've done UW NM with heroes aswell. (Tried HM)

I've never, ever, came to a situation where "moving between targets" was an issue for the obvious reason that PvE monsters do not kite. Even in HM, you can just flail away as a warrior without having to worry about them kiting whatsoever. (which is why skills such as bull's strike are useless in PvE) The ONLY monsters that do kite is healers when there's more than 2 people in their "party" that are already wanding/casting spells, and even then they often just wand themselves instead of kiting.

There's not reason why splinter rits, Ineptitude mesmers, insert any form of AoE damage dealer, wouldn't be able to kite.

Also, foe being balled up is a non issue in PvE, you should know this by now. Even UW HM, concidered to be the hardest area in the game, gets farmed solely due to the fact that you almost insta kill mobs with aoe skills. (keystone for example)

Riot Narita · Dec 02, 2010, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Discord "only" does 42 DPS. This number is a set amount, and won't ever, ever, increase. There is nothing you can do in this intire game that would increase the damage on a discord hero.

Wrong.

There's these things called Essences of Celerity. And Mesmer Fast Casting. And if you're human, there's also Slices of Pumpkin Pie. And Rock Candies. A Mesmer could also use Arcane Mimicry to have both Discord and Assassin's Promise on their bar, for instant recharge on Discord (they'd have to drop signet of illusions, which could cancel any DPS avantage. I'm not gonna bother to test it).

Faster recharge and/or reduced cast time -> more frequent casts of Discord -> higher DPS

You can also use Grail of Might to increase hero attributes by +1 thereby increasing Discord damage, and DPS. Human players can get another +3 with Lunar Fortunes, Candy Corn and Golden Eggs.

Ha! :-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I don't know if you've played warrior in PvE

Yes I have. And I found it extremely rare that all enemies come and stand right next to me, so I can hit them without having to move. I have to move to the targets, frequently. Many PVE monsters certainly DO kite. And hero Warriors, being pretty dumb, move around even more. Discorders don't need to move around so much.

Everybody knows what AoE can do. There's no point banging on about the maths of it. It's not going to convince anybody to stop using Discord, for the reasons already given. Discord is too easy, too brainless, and works in too many places with no hero micromanagement.

Sankt Hallvard · Dec 02, 2010, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Discord? Who gives a shit? I've never even considered using this skill. The fact that shadow form still exist in this game says it all really. Not to mention they have tried to stop it by every means available save changing the skill itself. Try doing a full uw run now without resorting to crap like "sf sin", "tank'n'spank" and "emo bonder".

IMO get rid of these 3 gimmicks and restore uw to what it was and people can actually pug it and have fun. Discord, save yourselves, SoH, spirit spam etc does not even come close to the current shit meta.

When scrubs can be more successful running buttonmash and permanent invincibility than people relying on key interrupts, positioning and active prots something is terribly wrong.

ogre_jd · Dec 02, 2010, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

However, if we're talking about a warrior with AoE attack skills, the more foes you hit, the higher your DPS gets. In HM, I average at around 25 damage per hit with Cylcone Axe (and triple is about 50). If you run triple chop and cylcone axe, you got, ignoring auto attacks, (25*2)+ 50= 112,5 Damage per 10 seconds per foe.

DPS isn't everything. Frankly, damage per target is every bit, if not more, important.

Quote:

This means that for every foe you have around you, your DPS increases by 11,2. (And this is full ignoring auto attacking) When you have 4 foes around you, which isn't much even by regular play standards, a single unbuffed warrior does more than a discord necro.

I envy you somehow managing to get more than one or two critters to stay adjacent to you instead of running around like mad to chase the squishies...

Quote:

I've never, ever, came to a situation where "moving between targets" was an issue for the obvious reason that PvE monsters do not kite. Even in HM, you can just flail away as a warrior without having to worry about them kiting whatsoever. (which is why skills such as bull's strike are useless in PvE) The ONLY monsters that do kite is healers when there's more than 2 people in their "party" that are already wanding/casting spells, and even then they often just wand themselves instead of kiting.

Lucky you. For me, pretty much everything melee is in constant motion chasing after the squishies. And the spellcasting types start running as well if I get even one hit on them, stopping only to cast. The running around is bad enough, especially in HM, that I rarely bother with an IAS since I have to have Sprint running pretty much non-stop (and, at 13 Strength, it's good for that with only 2s, plus a little for my slow reflexes, downtime - and even when I run 0 Strength, its 8s with 15s recharge is still damned good), and even that barely lets me keep up since most things seem to be running at +33%. :/

And forget about having more than two foes adjacent at one time, not counting Ritualists who're still on top of their spirits. Happens so rarely for me that it can't be relied upon.

We might as well be playing two totally different games, frankly.

Jeydra · Dec 03, 2010, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

The current speedclear using Sins was actually due to a competition here on Guru where Ursan Haters got together and made a competition to find a team of 7 players (plus a non combatant judge who suicided at the start and looked through deathcam at players to check that no illegal skills were used in the team build).

The idea was to make a team build that works in the UW without using any PvE skills. Cons were grudgingly allowed, because the Judges had no way of controlling the honesty of the teams using personal cons, so all and any cons were allowed for every team to openly use.

Shortly after that Ursan was nerfed for the first time I beleive. The successfull team build was published on Wiki a few months later after being modiffied to be even faster and include an active 8th player. That was the birth of UWSC using Sin teams.

I do not know, because this isn't something I participated in. But I'm one of the pioneers of spiritway (in fact I'd go so far as to say that I put together the current form of spiritway), and I know how I came up with the builds I use. Like many other people I used Discordway prior to the spirit buff. After the buff, I started experimenting with Ritualist heroes. The builds went through multiple changes: at one point for example the SoS hero had Communing defensive spirits, while the SoGM hero had Shelter and Displacement etc. It took quite a while (months) before the builds crystalized into their current forms.

Although I do not know how SC builds originated, I would scarcely be surprised if they were any different. In fact they'd probably take even longer to put together, because you need 8 players to test a build. If it took months before spiritway surfaced after the Ritualist update - and that happened without a nerf to Discord, by the way - then it would take months for SF-based SCs to happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Again, you can't argue with numbers. You can't say: "I don't think this 2 is a 2, I think it's a 1". Either it is, or it isn't.

Ignoring 40/40 sets, as they can be used for any build, and thus be left out for every build, it's 126 damage/3 seconds (under masochism). This results in 42 DPS, going from the fact that every discord goes through and that you can meet the condition for a hex and a condition every 3 seconds. (Which is reasonable with enfeebling and aoe hexes)

However, the DPS is just that, it's 42. Unlike a physical which can be buffed and buffed and buffed, you won't be able to buff a discord necro. Part of this also lies in the difference between discord and other builds:

In other builds the player, in one form or the other, supplies the majority of the damage, and heroes are there to do what they do best, which is support. In discord, however, you rely on heroes doing the damage, are they're stuck to non-PvE skills. (So non EOTN etc)

Discord is a reliable build in such a way you can pretty much always meet the damage condition, and their support works in just about every area in the game, however the damage they do is just so below-par a physical buffer, or AoE damage bars it makes discord a pretty "bad" elite by PvE standards.

What discord does is takes out enemies one at a time, which is fine for vanquishing, but when talking about speedvanquishing or elite areas (DoA) where there is douzens of balled up foes, one splinter weapon rit will probably outDPS 3 discordheroes, that's with only splinter weapon on his bar.

A non-AoE skill, no matter how powerfull, will never be concidered "rediciously OP" by PvE standards as long as warriors can go in and use one whirling swing to kill an intire group of lvl 28 monsters.

You can certainly cast other spells while Discord is cooling down. On its own, Discord might do 42 DPS, but a Discord Necro does not do 42 DPS. For the same reason a Fire Elementalist with Rodgort's Invocation does not do 12.7 DPS. What is stopping you from using Putrid Bile / Rising Bile / Vile Miasma, for instance?

40/40 sets don't apply to everyone. Physicals can't use them.

The player should indeed concentrate on damage. They have access to PvE skills and human intelligence. But Discordway doesn't rely on heroes to do damage. Take a look at the bars. In the current version of PvX Discordway, two of the Necros carry more Ritualist healing than damage, and the last hero has prots. Do you call them damage heroes? I don't.

Sure Discord DPS is low compared to buffed physicals. Pretty much all caster DPS is low compared to buffed physicals. But the AI can't play physicals well. So that removes buffing physicals from consideration, unless you the player are a Warrior. Which you might not be.

PS: Warriors are able to kill a horde of level 28 monsters with one Whirlwind Attack not only because of Splinter Weapon. If you've done it before, you know what skills are involved - Inspirational Speech, Mark of Pain, Hundred Blades, "By Ural's Hammer!", Shadow Form, Splinter Weapon, Death's Retreat. But then let's see you do that with a hero-based team.

ogre_jd · Dec 03, 2010, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Just capped Discord last night and took it for a spin. Certainly does seem a bit overrated. As far as I can tell, my Rit's spirits and the offensive henchmen the PvX page for the build says to bring were doing far more damage than the Discorders were, even on bosses. And, yes, I was constantly calling and had bound skill 1 for all three Heroes to easy to reach keys (F, V, and B). Generally, the henches and my spirits had killed the called target before I even had a chance to hit the Discords.

Of course, my Rit's a SoS spirit wrangler, so is blatantly overpowered and not really needing any *way for most spots, but if I do go with a *way for him, I think I'll stick with Sabway.

Daesu · Dec 03, 2010, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

While it's true, don't forget that to be a powerful, imba warrior, you need either some microing on your heroes or other players. Discord is easy to use - you never really need to micro anything on heroes - and works well while H/Hing.

Not really, SoH, Splinter, barbs, OOP/DF, etc. do not need any micro during combat other than disabling SoH and casting it on your warrior, hero would maintain it.

MoP needs more micro, but even if you don't bother, you can still get some benefits out of it for those times when the hero happens to get it right. Even without micro on a warrior, you can out damage a lazy non-micro discordway.

aspi · Dec 03, 2010, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Just capped Discord last night and took it for a spin. Certainly does seem a bit overrated. As far as I can tell, my Rit's spirits and the offensive henchmen the PvX page for the build says to bring were doing far more damage than the Discorders were, even on bosses. And, yes, I was constantly calling and had bound skill 1 for all three Heroes to easy to reach keys (F, V, and B). Generally, the henches and my spirits had killed the called target before I even had a chance to hit the Discords.

Of course, my Rit's a SoS spirit wrangler, so is blatantly overpowered and not really needing any *way for most spots, but if I do go with a *way for him, I think I'll stick with Sabway.

Me thinks you did it wrong, I don't care what spirits you bring, they cannot spike an enemy like your discord team can. I like my sabway build way more than my 8 necro team. But comparing a VQ or HM mission between two teams and the discord wins most of the times.
Also my Rit with spirit team does do a lot of damage, but the annoying thing about spirits is mostly after the first kill they have the stupid issue of attacking multiple targets, does not speed up kills.
Just that discord team is kinda boring just like a spirit spamming rit is boring as shit.

chilly willy · Dec 03, 2010, 02:21 PM // 14:21

OAhjYghsoSVVWbDTTOSTciOOeTA
OANDUshtSyBVBoBpBVVKgTfGNA
OAhjYggqIPXzy53UZ648mV1LGA
all three use kerrsh's staff and full survivors and the mm uses the one that decreases corpse exploit time. mm uses minor death and minor soul while the other just use minor soul all have sup vigor but majors do fine.
these are the builds i use when i use triple necros with my warrior. they all are designed to complement my play style. basically i wedge myself into the enemy group and tank while the heroes spam ancestor's rage, spirit rift, and xinrae's weapon. it works for almost every single hm area i rarely change it. the mm can be swapped between healing prayers/protection/or more rage spamming if i have either more necroes/heroes or a monk henchmen or something that uses healing or protection. and when im in cantha and i use the sos henchman i swap the sos necro's elite to icy veins. when the 7 heros come i can optimize the builds a bit by supplying more overall damage or healing because i wont be limited to 3 customizable npcs. the main thing people need to do is work on proper usage of heroes/henchmen like proper pulling and flagging techniques. target selection is also a big one. ive sued sabway and discordway both are nice when used right. discordway is more caster friendly where sabway is nice for melee players the builds i used now i came up with because of what i didnt like about sabway.

Warvic · Dec 03, 2010, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Run spiritway, mesmerway, paraway etc. Enough imba options these days.

Ghull Ka · Dec 03, 2010, 05:05 PM // 17:05

All of these replies which get hung up on the "dps" potential of Discord in a vaccuum are silly.

Why even bring up how much dps Discord does? We all know that number isn't germaine to any discussion about a Discordway build. Why do y'all keep falling back on the "dps rating" of that one skill, and then quoting it like it's a relevant metric? That's just soo weird!

Anyhow, if Discord got removed, I bet we could make similar hero-based spike teams... maybe ShadowStrike->VampGaze (like the old days!) or something? Channeled Strike might work work too.

ShadowsRequiem · Dec 03, 2010, 10:21 PM // 22:21

switch back to sabway.

ha